The ARK Crypto Podcast

Hosted ByJustin Renken

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Episode #014 – Justin Renken on the Main Stage Interoperability Panel at World Crypto Con 2018 Las Vegas Nov 2, 2018

The fourteenth episode of the ARK Crypto Podcast is here! This week, we jump directly into the full-length recording of the Interoperability Panel which took place on the main stage of the World Crypto Con show in Las Vegas on November 2, 2018. It featured a nice host and cool co-panelists, and it was a pleasure to be a part of it.

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This episode is hosted by Justin Renken.

Cheers and Enjoy!


Justin: Hello crypto land, I’m Justin. It’s Friday, and this is the ARK Crypto Podcast, Episode 14.

Justin: Well, this week we have no time for pleasantries because we have a full-length interoperability discussion to get to, featuring yours truly. This recording comes to you straight from the World Crypto Con Conference in Las Vegas, at the ARIA Casino Resort, during the turn of November. This recording was provided courtesy of tech and design firm, Nice Spaceship. Nice. That’s just something I like to say, isn’t it.

Justin: Now that I think about it, I think this is the first time that someone from ARK is on a panel similar to this, on a stage, on video with multiple people up there. Let me tell you, it is harrowing and terrifying, but exhilarating. I want to give a special thanks to Ken Hodler for inviting ARK to be on this panel. Enjoy.

Speaker 1: Excellent. Thank you very much for waiting. First of all, before we start with our panel, just gonna introduce our moderator for the panel. He’s gonna talk a little bit about what they are going to discuss right in front of your very, very eyes and ears. Please, warm welcome for Ken Hodler.

Ken Hodler: Hi, everyone. Thanks. What we’re here to talk about, we’re gonna talk a little bit about interoperability, a little bit about DEXs, a little about autonomous swaps. Those are the two main use cases right now for interoperability between blockchains. But then eventually we’re gonna tie that all back to how do we drive adoption.

Ken Hodler: Who we have here, this is David from Latium.

David: That’s right.

Ken Hodler: Then we have Paul Puey from Edge Wallet, and Justin from

Justin: Exactly.

Ken Hodler: Do you guys want to give a brief introduction to yourself and what your companies do?

David: Sure. I’m David Johnson. I’m CEO of a company called Latium. Our goal is to help out mass adoption. Just trying to make things easy for the everyday person to be able to gain access, and use crypto, and grow the space.

Ken Hodler: All right, [inaudible 00:02:19]. Paul.

Paul Puey: Hi, my name is Paul Puey. I’m co-founder of Edge. We deploy a mobile wallet and a security platform for various dapps. We have a similar goal, of course. I think most people here want to achieve mass adoption. Our goal, however, is driven by trying to make key management very familiar, if not invisible. Removing the need to ever see or have to back up a private key in the wallet infrastructure, but making sure that in the process of doing that, people still achieve one of the primary goals of cryptocurrency, which is that they own and control their own money without a third party.

Ken Hodler: Great, and Justin.

Justin: Sure. My name is Justin with What we do is deploy and empower everyone to deploy fully customizable and endlessly powerful blockchain solutions without much programming knowledge needed. We feel that with mass adoption, that needs to include everyone of all different skill sets and walks of life. If they have a need for a need for a blockchain, and not everybody will need a blockchain, but if they do, they should be able to harness that power with as little barrier to entry as possible.

Ken Hodler: Paul, let me ask you a question. I want to get to some of the more automated blockchain interactions that are being built right now, that are being developed right now. We’re gonna talk about DEX and autonomous swaps a little bit. But right now, your wallet actually does some blockchain interaction by being able to exchange currencies. Can you talk a little bit about how that works?

Paul Puey: Yeah. A lot of people are familiar with exchanges in general. Deposit some money, go ahead and buy some cryptocurrency, or swap what you’ve deposited from one cryptocurrency to another, with the advent of what ShapeShift revolutionized, which is the ability to exchange crypto from blockchain to blockchain without a lot of custodial access. I say not a lot of, meaning that funds still flow through them, but you don’t ever have them sitting there for any duration of time. Our product Edge, our mobile wallet, does allow people to transact between different blockchains, or to convert cryptocurrency between any of the over a dozen blockchains that are supported without that custodial risk.

Paul Puey: Now we realize that this creates a bit of a blockchain interoperability. It doesn’t achieve what I call the hundred percent of you’re going through zero third parties, but really in the strive to achieve some of the goals of blockchain or cryptocurrency, I always ask the question of, for a project, what is its goal? What is it trying to achieve? Less of, are you decentralized? More as, what are you trying to achieve? From the goal of trying to remove custodial risk, these solutions have really gone a long, long way. They’ve removed a lot of that custodial risk. It’s nice to be able to use a non-custodial wallet, and go from one crypto to anther without that risk.

Paul Puey: Now we’re seeing multiple services like them being offered, which not only reduces some of that risk to one single party, but also gives you a broader selection. Decentralizing, not just the company, but also the options that are available, more coins that are available, as well as just the uptime. Part of decentralization’s goal is providing better uptime, and fault tolerance. By having multiple services, we are able to achieve that while achieving that goal of being able to go from one blockchain to another, to another pretty easily through these types of services. Hats of to ShapeShift. While they’re not the only one, they’re definitely one of the first and original idea.

Ken Hodler: Cool. We describe that as being version one of blockchain interoperability. Let’s talk a little bit about version two, what’s that gonna look like. One of the things that a lot of people are talking about are the DEXs. I wanted to ask you, David, to talk a little bit about … I’m not real clear on how the DEXs actually work, but I know that they’re hard to get right. I wanted to ask you if you would talk a little bit about what some of the challenges are there.

David: It’s very similar to a lot of things with blockchain. You have scalability issues, you have latency issues. But I think the biggest thing that we’re facing right now with DEXs, and one of the reasons that I don’t think you’re getting a lot of adoption into DEXs is because they’re just not that easy to use. The usability is definitely a factor when you have somebody who has to connect multiple components to make something work.

David: There’s a amount of people that will do that, but I totally agree with what Paul is doing, in trying to make that as invisible as possible. I think DEXs currently don’t do a good job of making any of the technicality involved invisible. It’s all upfront and you have to understand that, and be able to deal with it in order to use a DEX.

David: I think once we get to a place where we’re making that invisible, we can actually start getting adoption. Because the idea behind DEX, of removing a third party as a custodian is a great idea. It’s revolutionary. But people aren’t gonna use that until they could figure out how to use it in five minutes.

Ken Hodler: But do you believe that those are things that can be overcome, that usability?

David: Certainly. I think that’s one of the beautiful things about blockchain, is that it gives us this ability to create these environments where we don’t need to trust anymore. But I believe that the timelines, it’s gonna take us a very long time to get there with a lot of things ’cause we’re still early on. Very early on, in my opinion.

Ken Hodler: Yeah, true.

Paul Puey: With respect to DEXs, I think there are … If I had to bucket them into a few of the reasons why we’re having challenges in driving adoption, it falls into two or three categories. Number one, all of the DEXs, there are dapps. DEX, for those that are new, stands for decentralized exchange. How decentralized they are, hard to say, but that’s what it stands for.

Paul Puey: By being a decentralized exchange you effectively are a wallet. For the people that they currently appeal to would be the traders because the process of how you place an order. If anybody has used what I would call, more like a store, or like a ShapeShift, where you’re paying money to receive something else, it’s a fairly simple user experience. You definitely felt this with a Coinbase product where I send you some dollars, you send me some Bitcoin.

Paul Puey: Realize that DEXs currently are targeted less for that kind of user experience and more of the trader’s experience, which means that instead of me saying, “Here’s $100. Give me $100 of Bitcoin.” Instead, it’s you place an order, “I would like to place $100 down or some crypto, and I want to buy it at a certain price,” and it sits there waiting for someone else to claim the order. Or as somebody that enters the DEX, you might be somebody that claims that order. Now that’s a very popular interface for people that are used to trading on something like E-Trade.

Paul Puey: This is where you look at the difference between a really end consumer that’s not a trader, that just wants to buy something at a store, versus someone who’s a trader who places market orders and limit orders. A lot of the DEXs are, by necessity due to the technology, cater to the trader-like interface where you have to place and grab an order. That being one of the challenges.

Paul Puey: Then second to that, because they’re all DEXs, and they’re all wallets in it of themselves, they also run into the challenge of key management. If you look at most traders in the industry, most of them just want to deposit something into a completely centralized exchange and place really fancy complex orders with bots that do almost everything. They don’t know a thing about keys. The people that care about the keys are the ones that are more utilitarian. We actually want to use cryptocurrency, or have an ideological point of view of saying, “I want to hold my own money.”

Justin: Your keys, your coins.

Paul Puey: Your keys, your coins. You have a product whose UX is tailored to people that prefer a completely different product. What do we have to do to bring all that together? How do we make these in a way that DEX is blockchain interoperability? What are the challenges there, will make it feel more like a centralized exchange, make it fast, it’s another issue, and appeal to the traders? Or go in the opposite direction and provide an interface where it’s I send you one currency and just give me back the other, and hide all the complexities of orders, stop-limit orders, market orders. Just here’s the money, return something back.

Justin: Well you know Paul, you bring up a lot of really good points, and ask a lot of very interesting questions that should be asked about DEXs. What’s interesting is that ARK has been in the game for a while. Our mainnet went live March 21st, 2017. It was incepted late 2016.

Justin: One of our earliest partners that we partnered with, ’cause we love to partner with other projects and help them succeed, and everything, let them use our code base and stuff, is Blockport, which is an exchange that’s coming out, and they’re in beta right now. Where they’re actually offering a hybrid model where it’s a decentralized and centralized exchange both, and they’re giving users the power to decide what they want to do.

Justin: Now what they’re also doing is they’re acting as tendrils to other exchanges to provide the liquidity. They don’t need to necessarily rely on market makers, or get all of the users all at once, they can utilize other exchanges to get things going, and then as the decentralize aspect starts to pick up steam, and people are using that as well, then they can just tab right on over to that aspect of it.

Justin: Not only that, but it’s a social trading platform too. You can follow your favorite traders and copy their trades. It’s a really easy way …

Justin: Your favorite traders and copy their trades. It’s a really easy way to learn about how trading works and how to get your hands on different tokens that you may need for different uses. Of course, ARK is very attracted to elegant user interfaces and a very seamless experience when you’re trying to use crypto and blockchain technology. Blockport does an amazing job at that which is one of the reasons we were originally interested in partnering up with them so very relevant to what we’re talking about right here.

Paul: So we’ve talked a lot about moving assets across chains, are there other use cases that, with an eye toward driving an option of this technology, are there other use cases, and a lot of it comes back to you know we’ve all talked about some of the ideals of blockchains and cryptocurrency in general. Are there killer apps that are out there that aren’t necessarily related to the transaction of funds that will help to drive that option in terms of the blockchains or the interoperability stuff? Or just in general?

Justin: Killer apps? It’s a bit subjective like even if there are unicorns out there today it’s a bit difficult to tell if they are and who they are but that being said there should be a way to kind of make an educated guess at something that’s going to get really popular. Right now we know that there aren’t millions of users using blockchains right now. However, to make it as easy as possible it’s going to make it more inviting. For example, there are a lot of services that may not have anything to do with blockchains that get people really interested in the crypto because at ARK we really want it to be as seamless and in the background as possible.

Justin: When you are interacting with a blockchain it’s making sense to you and making you feel confident in using the technology. We use what’s called a delegated proof of stake consensus algorithm and we have fifty-one delegates that run the network and users vote for delegates with their wallets and their wallets have ARK in them that have weight. It’s one ARK, one vote so it’s a very fair and balanced governing system. I bring that up to say that the delegates also deploy valuable community services that help ARK users and act as outreach programs to get new people involved in crypto and let them be exposed to the technology in a way that’s comfortable for them.

Justin: For example, one of the delegates, and this is just an example I’m not recommending that you vote for this specific delegate but, there’s a delegate called delegate fun. Delegate fun wants to build easy to play and fun cryptocurrency games. Just games you can play on your phone or your desktop, you can win ARK every day. The users like that service that Fun is providing and so they vote for Fun. If one of these delegates that is forging new ARK were to create a type of killer app then it would be very easy for users to get involved with that and experience that in a way that makes sense for them.

Speaker 2: As far as my thoughts on it I think we’re very early on and there’s a lot of companies that are focusing still on protocols, base level concepts of what blockchains will be in the future, wallets, and trading and exchanges. I don’t know that there’s a lot of people that are really targeting applications, I’m not saying there aren’t any, but I would say this probably the smaller part of the industry at this point and that’s one of the reasons you’re not seeing a lot of killer apps. I’d also say that DAPs, usability on DAPs, the biggest DAP has got five thousand users.

Paul: Yeah

Speaker 2: So the question is, is the problem with way DAPs are operating or is there a problem with the methodologies of which they’re trying to deploy that’s hampering usage? I think the usage issue comes down to latency and the fact that the apps are just not as clean and not as easy to use as something that’s centralized today. Obviously, long term goal is to fix that but that’s where we are right now.

Paul: What are some of the things we need to do in order to get there?

Speaker 2: Scalability definitely part of it. I also think that we kind of have to move away from the idea this religious concept that everything needs to be hosted on the blockchain. I think we can come back to that once infrastructure’s in place. I think that there’s a place for blockchain but hosting front end UI on a blockchain today I just don’t know how that works. I think that there’s pretty big issues with that. That’s my opinion on it.

Paul: The talk about DAPS and the biggest DAP only having five thousand users, I’d like to kind of put a little bit of perspective on the definition of a DAP. So a lot of people think of DAPS and the smart contracts being like an app you download that then accesses the blockchain and usually it’s a smart[inaudible 00:17:03] that does some fancy transactions on the blockchain.

Paul: Those fancy transaction if you simplify them could do nothing more than send and receive money. In essence, every single wallet is a DAP. It just does something very simple in that it just sends and receives money but that is interacting with a blockchain. Every DAP effectively is a wallet and then it has to talk to a blockchain and do some kind of operation and has keys that it manages. In that sense, if you think about the DAPS that have the most amount of users, the wallets have millions. So something more complicated than sending and receiving money doesn’t have as many users that’s kind of true in our regular world too.

Paul: In our regular world, sending and receiving money has the most amount of users and we have an exponentially smaller amount of users that do something more fancy with money such as other financial instruments such as trading which would be like a DEX or insurance. All those are much smaller user cases and that’s how I see DAPS. Playing their role in cryptocurrency is that first foundational layer is sending money, that’s what kind of wallet are, and everything on top of that is financial services on top of them. Now you asked a question of are we going to have something that’s not just payments, not just money. I think at it’s heart blockchains are meant to transfer value.

Paul: Whether you think value is money or it’s a signature in a document and proof of existence that’s just dependent on the sender receiver but in the end if you’re trying to build something that doesn’t transfer value, the blockchain is the wrong thing for you and I think ninety percent of the garbage projects we saw throughout last year and part of this year were doing that. Thinking that blockchains were the thing to fix all the problems in tech when they’re not. They’re meant to transfer value and do it without the middle man. I’m excited about what it can bring. I think payments is the first and foremost foundational piece that you need to have happen and then build financial infrastructure on top of that.

Paul: You mentioned UX issues that come about, one of those things that comes up in conversation, we were talking about a little earlier is kind of the Venmo experience. Like I want to build a punch in the name and send to somebody and right now you can’t do that in crypto. There is a product that’s still in stealth that you should hear about pretty soon within the next month that has the backing of five or six of the largest wallets and one of the biggest exchanges in the world that when they go live it will allow you to register basically name resolution between any different blockchain to send money to a name dot.

Justin: So one single name for all of the blockchain instead of this big long random number

Paul: Instead of the big long random number which is your public address you’ll be able to optionally if you choose register a or multiple public address for multiple different chains that you opt to receive money and register that under a name and a domain and every wallet may have a domain you can make a domain yourself.

Speaker 2: Like DNS.

Paul: It’s basically like a DNS except that it’s agnostic of DNS providers meaning there is no DNS provider, it does use a blockchain to host the names. As well, it will allow wallets and exchanges to transact with metadata that sits separate from that chain so I can say, “Hey, this was for dinner, kind of like the Venmo experience.” That gets encrypted and channeled through a separate chain then the ethereum you sent or the bitcoin that you sent. So we can really get this experience of both sending a request of payment, sending an actual payment and eliminate a lot of that complexity of public addresses and how do I know that’s you that I’m sending to. So from the viewpoint of interoperability I think this one is a pretty key piece. We’ve had these proposals in the past but this is one that’s finally gotten a least pre-adoption by a lot of the big companies.

Justin: Well that sound really interesting and you brought up protocol agnostic solutions, you brought up connecting all the blockchains or having access to a singular destination for multiple blockchains, make it easy. ARK has what is called the ACES protocol which stands for Ark Contract Execution Services. Actually quite apt because ARK recently sponsored the WCC Poker Tournament that I was in a couple days ago but I got eliminated along with Phil Hellmuth, I don’t want to talk about it. The ACES protocol allows you to use the ARK mainnet token to utilize other use cases on other chains without holding those tokens. ARK has been in the game for a while, more than a couple years which puts us in OG status for blockchains.

Paul: Well that’s interesting I haven’t heard of that. You said you’re able to utilize functionality from another blockchain with a non-native token?

Justin: That’s correct.

Paul: How does that work?

Justin: Well ACES is a community protocol it’s getting worked on for a while now and ACES has successfully established two way transfers between bitcoin, ethereum and litecoin with more on the way. For example, you can trigger an ethereum smart contract without every holding or using the ethereum token at all. What that means is when ARK was a baby chain they really had that vision of ‘we need to connect all the blockchains’, because why bother, it’s bad enough that we have like five hundred apps on our phone and we have to press this app to do this and like, these apps maybe kind of talking, don’t really, but you can sign in with Facebook on multiple apps but with blockchains it adds a completely new layer of complexity. Now you have to deal with a lot of tokens and endeavors like Edge are trying to help with that solution.

Justin: With ARK ACES protocol, let’s say for example, you want to upload a document to the Factum blockchain and you don’t want to deal with the Factum wallet or anything like that. You only need to upload one document, one time. It’s not like your using it every day so you can utilize the ACES protocol to communicate with what we call the ACES node which kind of acts like a business whose job it is to carry out tasks for you. You can tell the ACES node, here I have some ARK please upload this document for me, this is what it is, this is where it is. The ACES node charges you a fee for that and gets the job done. What’s beautiful is that it’s a free market situation so there’s no single point of failure and different endeavors can compete with each to benefit the overall end user.

Justin: Not only that, but if you had multiple blockchains that need to talk to each other then the fee structure and everything is independent so if there’s a lot of interoperability happening between ARK and blockchain A, the fees of interoperability between ARK and blockchain B won’t go up and that keep it fair for everybody.

Paul: Okay, interesting. A little bit of what you described there it’s real similar to the problem of getting off chain data into a chain.

Justin: Right

Paul: Yeah

Justin: Oracle, the oracle problem. In a way that’s like-

Ken: … Oracle. The Oracle problem, in a way that decentralized and secure, and so forth. And, there are some, currently some solutions that do that in a way that requires trust. What are some of the things that we need to do? Are any of you guys working on this idea that there’s data outside of the block chain that is important data to the block chain?

Justin: Well, it’s interesting that you ask. I’ll just be brief.

Ken: Okay.

Justin: ARK is very extensible, and we have well over a dozen SDK’s and different programming languages including C and C + + that you can utilize in to interact with ARK. So, if you have a node, and you’re running a delegate node, it doesn’t have to be a forging delegate node, but you can plug things in on your block chain that you’re deploying on your own, and communicate with outside services. Now, whether or not you need a network to validate the authenticity of that data, and have multiple sources confirming the same data, to make sure that it’s authentic, that is up to you when you’re deploying that. But, ARK has a lot of inputs and outputs, ports, plug-ins, it’s a very modular structure, and we’re releasing a new Core, CORE v2 we call it, within in the next coming weeks, that will give developers a lot more power and the network will be a lot more stable because we’re redesigning all the code from scratch.

Paul: Cool. So, with respect to interfacing with the real world, I’m glad you brought that up, Ken. So we talk a lot about block chain interoperability, and people forget … I’m surprised how many people I talk to that don’t realize that a block chain cannot talk outside of it’s own chain. It can’t read data from outside of it’s own chain, and it can’t write data to outside of the chain. So, that is actually one of the challenges in trying to interoperate two block chains, is that they have to communicate through the regular internet. So, how-

Ken: Or some other mechanism, right?

Paul: What’s that?

Ken: Or some other mechanism. It might be through, you know, it might be you and I having a conversation, right.

Paul: True, but eventually we have to write that to a block chain. A block chain does operate on the internet. But, that is one thing that, fundamentally, I think many projects don’t even realize. They say that I’m gonna write a block chain. It’s gonna do this. It’s gonna do that. It’s gonna read these documents. I’m like, “Where are those?” Oh, they’re on my server at Amazon. Do you know it can’t actually get to those. Right? And then, after it has access to them, then it’s gonna make these payments. I go, “What, Crypto?” No, like Visa, MasterCard. But, do you know, it can’t access that either. And so, people are forgetting the limitations of a block chain, and one of those is it simply cannot access anything outside of it’s own chain.

Paul: So, what do we do to try to alleviate that? We have to build a connector. There has to be someone, something, that says, “Oh, I see this data on the chain, I’m gonna do something outside the chain.” Whatever that is. Whether that’s make a Visa, MasterCard meme, write a document, anything, or vice versa, I see something in the real world, and I’m gonna put that into the block chain for a smart contract to process. That’s one of the biggest reasons why we have the concept of what you’d mention is oracles. And if you look at any, what I call decent to good, DAP project, the number one use of a token is specifically to build an oracle for that DAP.

Paul: So, I use an example of a well standing, one of the first DAP projects on the market, which was Augur. And they have a token, but what exactly is that token doing? It is building up interoperability between the real world and the block chain. By building a token, they give people the power to stake the truth. They have people now that own that token, say, okay, I’m gonna stake this, and here’s what the truth is. I believe so and so won the Superbowl, and if a lot of people, more than 51% of the people with tokens, say the same thing, then I am both rewarded, but, I also don’t lose money. If I say the wrong thing, and I’m in the minority of that group, then I lose money. It’s equivalent to mining. So, it’s almost like every single one of these DAP’s has a mini mining protocol built into it.

Paul: And, that’s actually the biggest use of these tokens, because you can’t do that with the main coin, you can’t do that with Ethereum and have people stake Ethereum. The reason being is that, the reason why you don’t lie is because you have tokens and you don’t want them to tank. If I staked an Augur rep token, and I have a whole bunch of them, so much so that I can influence the market, and make an incorrect call. Like, I’m gonna say that Hillary won the election, even though she didn’t, because I have so much of this coin that I can do that. Well, what happens to the value of the coin that I have a lot of? I’ll tank it. No one’s gonna want to use that network.

Paul: And so, this effectively is what ties the real world to the block chain, is the mechanism by which people, many ideally, many people, anyone that want’s to participate, buys and stakes these coins. It is, kind of, a proof of stake, built right into a DAP. So, this is one of the keyest, keyest, most key pieces of interoperability, and I think that’s what people should be looking for in some of these DAP projects versus one that just says, “I’m the one that writes the data of the block chain.” “My company, or my 10 people write the data of a block chain.”

Paul: So, trying to achieve some of that distributed nature in determining [crosstalk 00:29:25].

Ken: Well, that’s what makes a block chain work. I mean, it really almost can’t work without some sort of a value token. Right? And so, what you’re describing as extending that into data coming in from the outside world.

Paul: Correct. Exactly. I mean, that’s kind of what miners are effectively doing is, the data from the outside world is, yes, does this person really have the ability to write this transaction, and miners are staking as well. What they’re staking is electricity. They’re staking electricity and saying, “Yes, these transactions actually are valid.” And, if they’re wrong, they lose money. Same thing in a DAP. People stake tokens and say that this is the truth.

Ken: So, David, is Latnum, or Latium, I’m sorry, are you guys doing anything around interoperability?

David: Well, we’re really not at this point. We’re more of a mass adoption platform. I mean, we’re a multi-currency wallet. That’s about as close as we get. I’m actually very interested in what Paul’s doing and having conversations about how we can integrate those platforms together. Because, I definitely see the value of putting everything on a chain. I have concerns about where we are with scalability, and maturity as far as the block chain goes itself. We’re growing at a rate of a thousand to three thousand users a day. I don’t want to be in a situation where I can’t operate because of scale issues.

Ken: And, we’ve already seen that happen.

David: And, it will happen again.

Ken: We had it happy because of kitties.

David: Exactly.

Paul: A cat.

David: [crosstalk 00:30:59] and a coin. Plenty of times its happened.

Ken: Okay. Well, so we’ve got a couple minutes left. So, I just wanted to give everybody a minute if you guys wanna take a minute to do a closing argument. Justin you want to start?

Justin: So, closing argument, I argue that block chains are great. I don’t think that can be argued. But, ARK has a lot of exciting things going on in the future, near future, two, four. We’re looking at, of course, the ARK v2 code base that I mentioned earlier, and it may be sometime within the next few weeks to the end of the year that that will be ready. And, also, the white paper will be revamped to support our new features and powers. And, I also, in response to David, gave a talk at the Seattle Northwest Block Chain Conference about mass adoption. That went really well, and you can watch that on our YouTube channel. And, I really like Paul and David’s comments today. I’m really appreciative to be here, and thank you so much for having me on.

Ken: Yeah. Thanks for being here.

David: Closing argument, I would say that, one of the challenges in Cryptography technology as a whole, is that I think a lot of people in cryptography, even pre-crypto currency, are pretty strong purist. They literally try to find the absolutes and try to find the perfect solution. One of the biggest reasons why PGP, which was in an encrypted email platform, never got mass adoption is because they all just argued and bickered about, well, how do we transmit key and know that it’s yours, blah, blah, blah, as opposed to realizing what’s good enough. And so, in the same sense with a lot of some of the interoperability projects and the Dex’s, some projects are gonna get criticized because, well, maybe this one, even though it doesn’t hold any money, and transacts on a block chain to move money between one block chain and another, they may require some aspect of KYC, or an account, or what not.

David: But, they may have at least achieved a goal. And so, the thing to leave with, and understanding some of these tools, they may be criticized because they’re not absolutely perfect. But, realize where the benefit is, in what they’ve built versus what we currently have today in some of the more very, very centralized solutions, and appreciate it for that, and use what they’re building for a lot of the goals that they have achieved. ‘Cause I think that too many projects that should see the light of day, get criticized by the purist and maximalist.

Ken: Well, and anything we build today, we can change tomorrow, too.

David: Absolutely.

Ken: As we learn more.

Paul: Yeah, I would say that as an industry, totally agree there’s definitely the purist mentality, and I think one of the reasons that adoption is not growing at the rate it could is because of that. To me, you have a clear pendulum of security and convenience, and we live in a society that’s very, very far to the right on that, as far as leaning towards convenience. Block chains very much leaning security. So, I think we have to bridge that gap between those two things. And, in order for that to work, it’s gonna take some crossover from purist because there’s going to be a level of people that will never, ever use something that’s complex. I mean, most people don’t realize, you have 10% of the United States is under an 82 IQ. They can’t even get into the Army.

Paul: So, we’re asking them to figure out how to work with hashes and strings and hundred gigabyte files, I mean, it’s too much to ask.

Ken: Okay. Well, thank you everyone. I appreciate you guys were here. We’re out of time. And, thanks to Justin, and Paul, and David for joining me.

Paul: You’re very welcome.

Justin: Thank you.

David: Thanks for having us.

Justin: Alright. That’s gonna do it for this episode of the ARK Crypto podcast. Hope you enjoyed it. Tune in next week for podcast episode #14. 

Justin: You can subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, Sound Cloud, Stitcher, Spotify, and Cast Box. You can also check out our website at, where you can stream direct and read transcripts of all of our episodes.

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Justin: We’ll see you next time.

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